Posts by drew sagan

15

The day after Valentine's

by JimmyPage in

jw
friends

i had a pretty normal day yesterday until it was time for bed.

then my wife said: "we need to talk.

" i said i believed that is one of the names for god.

My thoughts are that she feels your instability in "the truth" comes from those "sins". Thus, confessing them may clear up things, bring "Jehovah's Sprit" back to the both of you and then everything will be OK.

From what you have written here, I really think this is most likely. Many JWs walk around with guilt, thinking that things do not go right for them because the "broke the rules" at some peroid in time. If they just get that cleared up officially, God will then begin to bless them.

I don't really know where you can go with this. You can humor your wife, yet that will bring pain. You can try to explain to her the pointless nature discussions with Elders bring forth, but she will ignore it. You can say you don't believe in the process at all and she will cry.

However you deal with the situation, I would say that realizing her desire for "cleanliness" before God will be of the most value. You possibly may begin to push the idea that she doesn't need forgiveness from anybody but God, or something like that. Try and get her to talk about exactly what she hopes will happen. Letting her openly talk about WHY she wants to do this meeting. She may just talk herself out of it. Try not to argue and/or give your own input. Just ask tons of quesitons about what she thinks will happen and why it would be a benefit.

29

Did you like the name "Jehovah's Witnesses"?

by JimmyPage in

jw
friends

or did you wish the religion had a more mainstream name?

i can remember a "worldly" schoolmate telling me he wouldn't object to the religion so much if the name didn't sound so weird..

drew sagan

I would have much prefered the "bible student" label, or somehting with the word "church" in it.

United Church of Bible Students

Yeah, now you just sound like something you can find on any street corner. Not some weird group of people that think the end of the world revolves around old men who live in Brooklyn New York.

12

when is the memorial this year?

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

anybody know?.

drew sagan

Why do I care?

Because I have to go, if not I will be rejecting the reject fest

79

Take the Beliefnet test... and post your results!

by Awakened at Gilead in

an atheist friend (never a jw) sent me a link to this fun test:.

http://www.beliefnet.com/entertainment/quizzes/beliefomatic.aspx.

turns out i am 100% secular humanist, but unfortunately i am still 5% jw!.

drew sagan

1.	Hinduism (100%)
2.	Eastern Orthodox (98%)
3.	Roman Catholic (98%)
4.	Seventh Day Adventist (90%)
5.	Orthodox Quaker (89%)
6.	Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (87%)
7.	Unitarian Universalism (80%)
8.	Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (76%)
9.	Mahayana Buddhism (76%)
10.	Liberal Quakers (76%)
11.	Theravada Buddhism (74%)
12.	Jainism (62%)
13.	Neo-Pagan (59%)
14.	Baha'i Faith (55%)
15.	Orthodox Judaism (53%)
16.	New Age (52%)
17.	Sikhism (48%)
18.	Scientology (47%)
19.	Reform Judaism (45%)
20.	New Thought (45%)
21.	Taoism (45%)
22.	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (42%)
23.	Jehovah's Witness (42%)
24.	Islam (41%)
25.	Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (41%)
26.	Secular Humanism (29%)
27.	Nontheist (18%)

12

when is the memorial this year?

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

anybody know?.

drew sagan

After sundown on Nisan 14.

ok mr. funny pants

thanks for a modern date sir82

12

when is the memorial this year?

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

anybody know?.

drew sagan

Anybody know?

7

Jehovah's Witnesses and their American roots

by drew sagan in

i've thought of this for quite some time but have never posted anything about it.. .

for many of us who bought into the watchtowers ideals of a "restored christianity" the thought would never have crossed our mind that the movement was anything but nothing but just that.

even after a person leaves it still may be hard to get beyond these clouded ideas and see that many of the origins of the movement and essentially american in nature.. .

drew sagan

I've thought of this for quite some time but have never posted anything about it.

For many of us who bought into the Watchtowers ideals of a "restored christianity" the thought would never have crossed our mind that the movement was anything but nothing but just that. Even after a person leaves it still may be hard to get beyond these clouded ideas and see that many of the origins of the movement and essentially American in nature.

Of course, this is because it is an American religious movement. No matter how hard it tries to push past it's origins and proclaim it's global identity it can't be denied that the very American origins of the movement fully define what it is.

In the most earliest forms of American religion you can see the beginning of religious philosophy that would eventually make it's way into JW thinking. The early sermons and ideas of John Winthrop (Puritans) as well as George Fox (Quakers). I am always fascinated by similarities to early Quakerism and Watchtower thinking (meeting houses, rejection of clergy class, pacifism, use of the term "friends" to denote fellow believers). Eventually we move into the great awakening where the call for religious "revival" was extremely strong. Out of this eventually came people such as Joseph Smith (mormons) and eventually William Miller (Millarites). After "the great disappointment" (which bears extremely similar history to the Watchtower in the years following 1914 & 1925) we move onto the next movement which is Seventh Day Adventism. Throughout the late eighteenth and nineteenth century it was these forms of christian restoration theology mixed with prophetic speculation that would eventually push C.T. Russell to publish his Watchtower magazines in the latter portion of the nineteenth century.

But I do not believe the influence of American thinking and ideals on JWs ends there. Throughout the late 19th Century and early 20th the JW movement (and especially leadership) continued to be influenced by the country they we a part of and yet so despised. They would eventually fully adopt the ideals of the "cult of domesticity" in early american life (the place of the woman is the home), as well as borrow sales and business practices common throughout the country as a way to expand the movement.

When you take into consider the American religions produced at this time that would eventually be exported all over the world (mormonism, adventism, Jehovah's witnesses, christian science, ect) you see that there is a unique set circumstances that created this. It wasn't just by change. Whether they like it or not, JWs have a strong history in american ideals and philosophy stretching back to the earliest protestant settlers who came to this country because england "wasn't protestant enough".

This of course suggests that the Watchtower movement is something that simply has evolved over time according to the times in which it finds itself. While not something JWs are going to spring on as a solid truth (and most likely resist), I don't think you can really understand the JWs until you begin to see all of the many other American groups and people who in one way or another have shared in those ideals throughout the past few centuries.

26

What would be the iceburg to the WT's Titanic?

by wobble in

the illustration in my question was inspired by the great mr flipper who likened going back to the borg as "swimming back to the titanic".

it seems to me that the many and various things that woke us all up are like iceflows to the wtbs,little bumps that they shrug off and ignore,it dosn't seem to matter that these things are huge to us,and shattered our faith that the wt had any connection with truth.. so as the u.n debacle,peadophile scandals,lies exposed etc etc are all ignored by the passengers on the wt titanic,the band is still playing and the ship is unsinkable from their point of view.. what would be the iceburg that would rip a hole in the side of this floating ship of lies?.

i cannot think of anything bigger than the things it now shrugs off,any ideas?.

drew sagan

I tend to believe it would be any sort of scandal that was able to penetrate through the membership enough to create dissonants.

The internal Watchtower organization will always make the exterior organization sacrifice for it's own survival. Those on the inside (I am referencing those actually working in the various departments and leadership positions inside the actual headquarters) have shown an attitude that they must retain control at all costs, even if it brings upon major suffering for those members on the outside.

If however those on the outside got word of those on ths insides mismanagement of a particuliar issue of some sort, there is the possiblity that if enough JWs on the outside (i.e. real world JWs) organized and demanded change from the internal leaders a schism of some sort could come about.

This could be brought on by financial problems (as some have mentioned), but I don't it's limited to that.

27

Exclusive video from the 115th Gilead class... check it out!

by Awakened at Gilead in

this has been my most challenging video yet!

click for an exclusive look inside the walls of gilead, as well as an overview of what crap gilead teaches.. .

includes never before see video interviews with gilead instructors, wally "the end is coming really soon" liverance, lawrence "newly anointed" bowen, and mark "mr. availability" noumair.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5fqz2_lzge.

drew sagan

Excellent!

One of the most puzzeling things (I think) about the Watchtower organzation is the level at which members have no real idea what the experiences of others really are. They don't know anything about leaders, policies, procedures or members for which they have no contact with. I don't think this is all intential. Because the Watchtower is print oriented with very little deviation from a routinized article structure, there is so much information the individual JW just doesn't know.

Typcially in other organizations these gaps would be filled by things such as newletters, websites, books written by members, ect. But in the Watchtower there is no ablitiy for members to participate in such things. This leads to a general ignorance the members end up having about their own organization.

Eventually, somebody like you comes along and then those who are out of the organization tend to find out more than they ever did.

What I find most puzzling about this is that while it may give off the appearance of something beneficial to Watchtower leaders (namely, more control over information/members), there are a good number of reasons why this is also "bad for business". The main reason being that people would possibly be more involved and excited about the movement if they had more contact with it in dynamic ways. It's almost like most of the "rank and file" are outside members of an organization, or to put it another way, there are really two types of Watchtower membership. One where you are on the "inside" (mainly people who are in the physical facilities and/or regional programs), and those that attend the services (rand and file). The first group gets much more access and even acts differently than the other group in many instances (probably because the first gropu are locked away from reality!)

11

Witnesses don't tell you everything up front -They boil you slow like a frog!

by Witness 007 in

put a frog in boiling water and he jumps out....but turn the heat up slow and he will boil alive.

{i hate brothers using this in talks} imagine if the witnesses told you up front what life as a witness will be like.. 1. you can never leave us when your baptized...ever, for any reason, your a witness for the rest of your life.

we will disfellowship you for leaving.. 2. you and your family members must be trained to be willing to die rather then accept blood transfusions, even escaping from the hospital and or pulling out the drip.

drew sagan

It's called a 'bait and switch'. I wrote about this a little while ago:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/157371/1/The-Bait-and-Switch-tactics-of-the-Watchtower-Society